Grey Matters More: Courses

Following the dream, 

Trying something that you have always wanted to do. This episode discovering how to become a writer and living in the wild. With advice from special guests Richard D Rhodes and Jamie from Howlbushcraft.

See below on their You Tube videos about the Ramblers Discover the joy of a Ramblers group walk "It's paradise": Our Community Champions in the Cairngorms. The Out There Award, summer 2025

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Transcript

Derm Tanner 0:00

Hello, welcome to another episode of Grey Matters More, the Antidote to the Retirement Blues. Certainly got rather more time on your hands than you're used to. Not sure how you're going to fill those days effectively. Perhaps you're missing some social interaction. Well, maybe this podcast can help. We spent months talking to charities, companies, and sports clubs who are all after volunteers. I'm Derm Tanner, and I'm Roy Player. And a little different this episode, away from volunteering, as we look at trying to scratch that. You know, I've always wanted to try that itch.

Roy Player 0:33

Yes, and so this time we thought bushcraft. Well, I I did actually look up Derm what a sort of a definition of bushcraft was. And it says here that it is, and it sounds quite romantic, this, the art and practice of using natural resources and survival skills to live comfortably and self-sufficiently in the outdoors. Now, if I can say to you that my idea of living outdoors and comfort, I stayed at a hotel in London once. We went to watch the cricket together, I think. I stayed at this hotel and they served in the morning at breakfast instant coffee. So that's rough. That's my idea of living rough. So you've got no chance. I have great admiration for those people who really want to get out there and try Living Rough.

Derm Tanner 1:28

We're also, of course, going to be talking to script writing because I mean it's not just we're gonna have two courses on this particular episode.

Roy Player 1:35

Script writing is in is in my blood. I haven't quite, unfortunately, been able to take the sort of DNA from my father to actually do any decent script writing, as many people will confirm. But Script Yorkshire, I mean, what an extraordinary organization. They are a volunteer run and they support writers in creating stories for stage, screen, and radio, and they've won several awards. It's an extraordinary achievement, actually. And all you have to do is just become a member of that organization, which is very cheap. It is very cheap, and they will give you guidance from professional writers and they will really help. As we when we chat a little bit later on, to Richard Rhodes, absolute star, and he already has written his first screenplay. What an achievement.

Jamie Dakota 2:22

I'm "Jamie Dakota" i run "Halbushcraft" as the owner and chief instructor, and I basically consider myself a wilderness skills specialist, I suppose.

Roy Player 2:31

Now that sounds really impressive to me. I mean, I as far as my wilderness skills are concerned, i t's lying in the hammock in the garden. And I am absolutely overwhelmed by what you can do, and the things that you have on your website are absolutely outstanding. Bushcraft. What does it mean for the average person sat at home? How do people get involved?

Jamie Dakota 2:55

Great question. So I think people getting into bushcraft, I suppose the first thing to appreciate is that they're essentially our intrinsic human abilities. So we're not as much as I like to hang out in the hammock in the back garden or sit on the sofa and watch the latest TV series, we're sort of built for something different, and I think a lot of what I see in my work is people trying to come to terms with a unease with modern comforts and a sort of striving towards I don't know, there's like something calling them inside, they don't really know what, what that is, and so I tend to pick people up and bring them into the woods, and they suddenly realise that actually, although it's a bit cold and a bit windy, especially today, and there's a bit of rain coming down, actually with a little fire and a shelter behind you, the comfort you can generate in the outdoors is significant, but also the sort of overabundance of comfort at home might be the thing that's constitute you know, contributing towards your yeah, sort of various struggles, really, anxieties, all sorts of things.

Roy Player 4:07

I love being outside, but what I would say is that I would have a real sort of fear of taking those first steps about going out and joining something that you do, you know, sleeping in the middle of a woods or trying to survive. I know it's a controlled environment, but try and survive. It is how on earth do you encourage people like myself to take those first steps?

Jamie Dakota 4:31

I think there's lots of ways in which you kind of have that first encounter with people. I think for for me I benefit from most people are looking for it already, so they're kind of Googling bushcraft courses or they you know have an interest. So I'm not approaching just anybody off the street and dragging them in which is helpful. But then, yeah, I think in terms of setting up from like a business point of view, a lot of that is I just try and present my thought myself as authentically as I can, whether that's through the sort of graphic design that's on the website, the way in which it's worded so everything that's on the website I've written myself rather than having it kind of AI generated and that sort of stuff, or to kind of give voice to this idea that like I'm the person you're going to be interacting with, and I think it seems to be like for a large part that's what assuades people and makes them sort of feel comfortable in the first instinct, is that they're talking to me from the very beginning. So I think one of the one of the things I tried to do is to if I was lucky enough to have somebody land on my website and have a look at it, I wanted that experience to be positive, so it's not just a bland, kind of boring this is what you do on the weekend. I tried to give it a voice, and I wanted that voice to be encouraging from the beginning, so that that essentially is the kind of bottom line of how I encourage people to come out and then I kind of live that life authentically as well. So if somebody goes to my Instagram or they kind of check out what I'm doing as an individual, I am doing the things that I'm kind of advocating, and I think again that's helpful. Like, I'm not you don't have to be living in a hut in the woods to enjoy a bit of foraging. Like I just I live in a normal house in Sheffield, you know. I've got two kids, a wife, a dog, a fish. But we it's all incorporated in modern life, so it's not that you have to completely you know break ties with society, it's just that kind of I think I guess like a course correction, like we've gone a little bit too far into the sort of creature comforts you know, computer modelled world. And actually, if you just sort of take one step to the right and just put your hand back on a tree for every once in a while, it it's that kind of I mean, I'm talking about it now, so it's this kind of conversation that you have with people that tends to encourage them out.

Derm Tanner 6:43

So when people first come to you and you're having that conversation, presumably you are kind of sizing them up as well, aren't you? Because the last thing you want to do is to frighten them off, and some people might just want to do a little bit and just learn how to navigate naturally. They don't necessarily want to live on the wild forever, and there's a million miles between the two, isn't there?

Jamie Dakota 7:03

Absolutely, yeah, and I think I like I've I always try to sort of meet people where they are. So if I'm meeting somebody for the first time, it's just two people having a chat. I want to find out kind of who they are, what their background is, what their interests are, and I'm not gonna kind of ram a syllabus down their throat. Like I I essentially see myself as a facilitator. So we'll have a chat, you'll tell me kind of the things you're interested in, and I'll just open a couple of doors and kind of show you what the possibilities are. And usually what you find is that the sort of excitement level goes up, and actually like the depth and the diversity of the field speaks for itself, and then people are it, it, it does just happen organically, and I think like the natural navigation course is a good example of that's usually an entry-level course where people are out in the peak district or wherever they're coming from, going for walks. They've tried using maps and compasses and they just want you know some something else, a little bit of help just for kind of getting around. So I'm not asking them to do anything that's extreme or requires a huge amount of physicality or anything like that. It's just little kind of nuggets of wisdom that kind of what are you what are they doing?

Derm Tanner 8:16

What are you, what are you teaching them?

Jamie Dakota 8:18

Yeah, okay, so a good example would be like how to keep a bearing across a you know across a bit of countryside. So how, how do we make sure that we're going in the right direction? and it can be as simple as, you know, I'll tell you, okay, well we, we've been walking this way for a little while. Have you noticed that you've been squinting out of your left eye the whole time? And it's because the sun's on the left side of your face, and the sun's a fairly consistent f igure in the sky. You know, it moves at kind of a hand's breadth every hour, but it more or less stays in the same place over a short time period. And so it's and I've not done anything, I've not given you anything, I've just helped you to realise that that's something that you're already doing. Um and so it's uh that course in particular is great for that. So we just look at all these things that are you essentially embody those skills. So it's not like I'm gonna give you a piece of equipment, you need to learn how to use it, and then you can operate it, and then you can do this thing. It's just like no, but we're here, we're in our bodies, we're all people, we can all feel the sun on our face, we can all feel the wind, um we can all taste sun.

Roy Player 9:18

I mean I'm, I'm, I'm hearing that, I can understand that. But you kind of also talk about doing things like sort of lighting fires without matches and stuff. You also talk about building a tent of some sort or some sort of construction that will keep the rain off at night. Ha ng on a minute, you know, I mean, how? Where how do you how do you do that? How do you start with someone like myself who is you know absolutely hopeless at doing these things? How how do you get someone to feel good about themselves as well with doing things like that?

Jamie Dakota 9:48

Ah man, where do I start with that one? Um

Roy Player 9:50

IKEA,

Jamie Dakota 9:52

I think. Well, I guess like I've been doing it long enough now, I'm sort of in a nice position where like breaking the fourth wall, I've got you know a whole repertoire of like little tips and tricks that I can kind of dip into. But essentially, there are there are some things that are quite easy to teach, there are some things that are very easy to learn, and so if somebody's kind of new and lacking confidence and we can go in for those kind of baseline things that will get you where you need to go, and you'll gain confidence really quickly, and not just in the skills, which is important, because you want I want people to come away feeling like they can rely on what they've learned, but you also gain confidence in me, and I think again that's really critical as a coach is that I don't want you know, I don't want to ever present with like an ego or some sort of thing that like, oh well I can do this because obviously I've been doing it 10 years, but you'll never get there. This is just a bit of fun for the day. That's not the vibe at all. Like I want people to really kind of yeah, just end up where I am, and that's the whole fun for me. Like, if I is I don't think I'd last very long in this industry if I was stood at the front, you know, espousing my skill set instead of yours.

Derm Tanner 10:59

Yeah, and also not preaching to people, do you know that you need to live like this because we're all going to go to hell, sort of thing, you know.

Jamie Dakota 11:05

No, and again, that that helps that I'm again it it's authentic in that way. Like I don't do that, and so I don't need to kind of present that to the to the customers, and yeah, again that's helpful. There are plenty of people out there that do live really kind of different, diverse, primitive lifestyles, which are obviously awesome people, and if you want like a guru to go and learn from, and these are some of the people that I hang out with because you know I'm just further on the trajectory, but it's not that, like, not everybody's going to the same place, we're not all on the same river going to the same estuary.

Roy Player 11:41

How how do you see, I mean, it must be incredibly satisfying from your point of view as well, how you see people develop throughout the course, whether it be a day course, a weekend course, and and also one of the ones you do which actually takes over a year. But it must be fantastic to see people's confidence grow and abilities to fall.

Jamie Dakota 12:01

Yeah, it is. I mean that's why I do it. Like the year course that we run, that's incredible for keep for people coming back month after month and you're just seeing that progression. And for me, that's exactly why I do it. I've been really lucky in that I grew up in the outdoors and I feel like my baseline confidence as a person comes from some sense that I am with the planet, right? I'm not kind of on the planet trying to exist, but we're all kind of part of the same thing. And I think one of the real privileges of my job is that I get to give people that insight. And it doesn't take much, and I think that's where again, like that's where I really come alive, is I just work with people, and whether it's on a day course or a long form course, at some point they start to get it, and then I can I then it's a lot easier for me to just be a little hands-off because I've the work's done at that point. All I'm then doing is I'm, I'm just showing them the tricks of the trade, but getting them that insight that you know you're part of the planet rather than being a kind of visitor on it. That's kind of at the heart of everything I do, really.

Roy Player 13:04

Listening to you now would make me want to go and do this. I don't know about you, Derm.

Derm Tanner 13:08

No, definitely, definitely. But I think also, you know, we grew up our our childhoods were outdoors, you know. We didn't have laptops, we didn't have iPads, we didn't have all of that stuff. I worry about the generations to come who aren't outdoors, and then you know, the Jamies of 40 years time, they've got a really hard job to do, haven't they?

Jamie Dakota 13:31

Potentially, yeah. I think so I do I do a fair amount of youth work as well, kind of alongside the work that I do with Howell. And I think I was just thinking about this on the drive-up actually, like the thing I get out of that is like I love young people, right? There's just the they are the kind of rejuvenative force in society, and they're, they're always the ones that are like driving change and, and thinking novelly and doing things differently. And I think where, what our duty is, like we give them a kind of a framework to exist within. So I think to speak to what you were talking about there with kind of over-reliance on digital stimulus, lack of outdoor time. I do yeah, I do feel like we have a duty to kind of provide that for young people, but young people are also the best students. So I work in in Sheffield, I work with some of some really challenging youth groups who have got very, very difficult backgrounds for all kinds of reasons, and these are not kids that typically do very well in school. Um they they've got a hard go of it for lot for lots of reasons. You get them into the woods and you light them a fire, they are loving it. Like they're they're immediately on board.

Derm Tanner 14:49

They that's really interesting.

Jamie Dakota 14:51

Yeah, and like they don't have that kind of reservation that adults have of like, oh well, I'll get cold and muddy, and I big and I guess because you've kind of got some memory of that being uncomfortable at some point, or you've got the legitimate worry that, like, oh man, I've got I've already got a pile of laundry to do at home. I don't need to be taking all this stuff back to stinking a woodsmoke. Young people are are very easy in that way, like you again you just meet them where they are. So rather than being preachy or you know, too heavy-handed with the whole like you need this in your life, otherwise, you know, you're gonna go down the wrong path. I don't we don't do any of that. We are I am literally just like, look, here we are today. This this is where you are, these are some options you've got. If you want to hang out in a hammock for the day, that's totally cool by me. And that legitimately we do. Like the first thing I teach them is how to make a hammock.

Roy Player 15:37

Well, I mean, I just think if people also have listened to this and have been you know inspired by what you're saying. There may well be some people as well who actually go, actually, you know, I want to do more than just come along for a course. How do how do people actually get involved with doing what you're doing? How do how do people take care of are there courses available as well for people to do?

Jamie Dakota 15:56

Yeah, so I think trajectories kind of into a bushcraft career um really varied, and so I think I, I came in at an age where the bushcraft industry essentially had established schools, like independent companies that had in-house training, in-house staff, and the sort of various companies didn't really cross-pollinate that, that much. There was some, but not that much. I think what we're seeing now in the in the industry is more of a sort of a collaboration phase. So I, I and again, because I'm kind of a self-starter, I just set up my business. I had some opportunities to work with an outdoor centre which let me get my sort of foot in the door and get myself started. But we're now seeing lots of collaborations, and so there is like a growing industry for freelance instructors, it's not huge yet, but it does mean that people can be a little bit more mobile. And so, what you know, if you'd have asked me kind of five, six, seven years ago how to get into the bushcraft industry, it would be go on a bunch of courses, find a school that you like, start volunteering, learn the ropes, start getting paid. It's a little bit different now. I'd still strongly recommend going and getting on some courses, not least because you'll get a sense of what the industry actually is, and if you've got that kind of sense to just peek behind the curtain a little bit and see what I'm actually doing, it's a lot of early mornings, it's a lot of late nights, setting up, packing down, sorting gear out, writing syllabuses. To sort of answer your question. If if you're listening to this thinking, oh, I might I might want to sort of get a feel for that and and maybe go into a bushcraft career, getting on some courses would be the first thing.

Derm Tanner 17:32

Inspirational stuff, Jamie, and what a what a fantastic life to be out. I mean, what a great day today. Sun that's warming the back, it's you know the end of October as we speak, but it's a lovely day, and you know, why wouldn't you want to be out?

Jamie Dakota 17:46

Thank you so much. So yeah, no worries at all and yeah, I think that's exactly right. Like you're talking about the sun on your back. Like it's just about putting people back in their bodies, so rather being kind of locked in your head, giving you some physicality, some physical contact with the outside world. Like that's once once we do that, the my job's easy after that.

Richard Rhodes 18:13

Hello, I'm "Richard Rhodes". I'm a writer and a freelance producer.

Derm Tanner 18:20

So we're talking about courses for script writing, writing for theatre, writing for television, writing for anything, I suppose. How did you start? How did you get into it?

Richard Rhodes 18:29

Well, a bit of a a long way around the houses, I suppose. When I was five, I was saying to my parents, I'd like to be a writer, and they, as good Bradford parents, went don't be daft, you want to get a proper job. So I went away, went to uni, got a proper job, started off in banking, then after 15 years of that, pivoted over into primary education, got to the point when I could get into early retirement. I sold up down there, moved up north, and after that thought, right, okay, let's get into doing finding somewhere to do the writing. I very ashamedly moved north thinking, okay, what writing will there be up in around Bradford, Shipley,, and all that sort of thing, thinking it would be just library groups, that sort of thing. I did start with a library group, but very, very rapidly got in introduced to various different people. One of the people in the group I knew Jonathan Hall, who's the head of Script Yorkshire, Chair of Script Yorkshire, and said, Oh, you really need to speak to him, so I did, and that then started opening a few my eyes to a few more bits and pieces, like Script Yorkshire itself.

Derm Tanner 19:45

So basically, you've had three careers, is what you're saying.

Richard Rhodes 19:48

Yeah.

Derm Tanner 19:48

Yes, and you're a brave man, and that's what we're hoping people to be, to be brave.

Richard Rhodes 19:54

I think I think the thing is that you know, if you've got something that you, as been buzzing away at the back of your head for however long it might be that you would want to give it a go, then yeah, give it a go. Find the mechanism to be able to do that, and sometimes yeah, it might involve selling up and moving halfway across the country. Other times it might be just getting down to your local library, doing a bit of Google searching on online, just to find where you can find your tribe and where you can find something that you can connect with so that you can do what you've always wanted to do.

Roy Player 20:30

I think one of the things I've noticed as well, Richard, is I mean, my, my dad was a script writer. Unfortunately, he passed away before I was able to pick up any of his skills, and it's something though that's in my DNA that I would love to put down on a piece of paper a story, but I don't know where to start. Now you mentioned Script Yorkshire and that's how I came across you actually. Can you maybe just tell us a little bit about what Script Yorkshire does to encourage people like me to get involved with writing?

Richard Rhodes 20:57

With Script Yorkshire, it's a network of people who can find out about script writing right from the basics and the minutiae right through to more detailed, uh advanced uses of writing or applications of writing, and it's to encourage people to be script writers, whether it's stage screen, audio, computer games, whatever it might be. Those facilities exist. People can join up, and then you've got various different chat groups, you can find people in your local area, you can find workshops that we're putting on, and we've always got something up and coming that helps people. I mean, recently, as an example, I got Julia McKenzie, who is the BBC Commissioning Editor for Radio Comedy for Radio 4 podcasting. She came to Bingley, did a fantastic four-hour presentation to us, really industry-specific, really very useful information and practical information about what do you do, how does it work, how can you submit things to Radio 4, and to understand how that goes through producers these days and how to do that and how to who you can how you can work on these things. She was so generous with her time, but that's just one example of the many we've got. We've got other things up and coming. We, we, we, we I know we've got something planned that is going to be for helping people to write musicals and all that.

Roy Player 22:26

I mean that sounds phenomenal. I mean it's an extraordinary organisation. I think what I would ask her is if again, if that someone's sitting on the couch at home and is a little bit nervous about because it being a creative, it, it we are very temperamental as well, and we get upset if someone says, actually, I don't like that very much indeed. I mean I do remember things at school where people teach us perhaps not being as enthusiastic as you would like, and you take it to heart. How does that work when you get a little bit older but you're trying to enter into a creative world? How supportive can you be?

Richard Rhodes 22:58

I think the thing is it, is a case of as I've said finding your tribe, and I think within Script Yorkshire you can find like-minded individuals who will help you along the way, getting people to read your work, encouraging you know, an accountability buddy, somebody who will get you to commit something to paper. Because I think the biggest fear factor is staring at that blank piece of paper and not knowing what to do and where to start. And and quite often the advice is really just get something down, doesn't matter what, and as you get more practised and more experienced, then yes, things will keep on following through. But then with within Script Yorkshire, we've got mechanisms to help people try things out. We've got page to stage where people can get their short pieces on and performed and then get some feedback from a panel. Equally, we've got a radio competition where short radio pieces can be produced, all that sort of thing. But then equally it. it is finding people that you can collaborate with, with people that you trust, and when you, you're of a in a like-minded community like that and people want to bring you on, it becomes very much a peer effort, and that is so important.

Derm Tanner 24:12

I think also I get the impression there's a lot more support out there. I think about my dear old mum who wanted to write a book, has actually written a couple of books, not got them published, but didn't really have any support. I've got the manuscripts at home and I read them every now and they're kind of children's stories. But you know, if there was a bit more support around for her then, and I'm sure she was trying to write this in the 70s and the early 80s, and she was on her own really? But now I get the impression potential writers are not on their own.

Richard Rhodes 24:42

No, no, not at all. I mean, and I don't want to be dismissive about it, but generally your local library is a really good starting point because there's usually some group either at that library or nearish by, and usually the library can connect you to where those groups exist. Equally, checking online, you'll find where there are various different writing groups. And it depends on what sort of writer you want to be, but um certainly at this moment in time, when you think about the area where I've moved to in the north of England, there are quite a lot of organisations, whether it's small theatre companies, whether it's l ike-minded individuals who have got initiatives there to bring people together to you know to bring that tribe together and to actually help foster things through peer support so that things can grow and develop. I mean, alongside what I do at Script Yorkshire, one of the other things I do, I head up studio productions at Bingley Little Theatre, and there we've got a script writers lab, we meet once a month, one month will be virtual, the next month will be in person, and again we are doing things to bring people on, and it's and it is very much peer support, and it's what people give, then you'll get back out of it. But it's it is to really encourage people to be part of something. I know one of the hardest things can be just to think, right, okay, I'm gonna walk in the door in some somewhere, but everybody is friendly, they're welcoming, v arious different things I've been involved with, and and that is absolutely fabulous, and I think when you think, Oh, I'm the older person, will they really want me and be part of it? Then yes, they do, and people do, and because the older you are, you've lived a life, you've had life experiences, you've got stories to tell, and and people can help you craft those and get those down on paper in one shape or form. Is that potentially a good starting point for telling a story? Yeah, I mean there's the old adage with writing that it's it it it's write, what you know, and you know your life story, and you'll know events from that life story. Now, obviously, depending on who you're writing about and where you think this might end up, you'll anonymise things, you'll change things, but you'll take inspiration from a little bit here, a little bit there, and it really does help you create something out of that that existence. And equally when you you you mull things over, you might think, oh well, and from a a fictional point of view, I can I can twist this a little bit this way or a little bit that way to give it a its, it, its nuance and and put your stamp on it. But at the end of the day, yeah, you you've got a lot there, and those stories are something that are worth telling and sharing and and and recording in some way, shape or form.

Derm Tanner 27:27

So speaking and personally for you, Richard, have you surprised yourself how far you've come? Yeah.

Richard Rhodes 27:35

I think the what, when I moved north back north, two and a half years ago, I thought, oh okay, well that'd be lovely if I can give it a go, and it'd be lovely if I can find a few people to do things with. Two and a half years on, yes, I'm up up in the north, back where I was born and all that, but I've been mentored by national organisations in in being a writer, which is one thing, and I never would never imagine that to begin with. But then I've written plays, I've had something on it. It was a small local tour with a small producer, but nonetheless I've had plays on touring around West Yorkshire. I've been involved with talking to TV producers about TV shows and what could potentially come out of all of that, and I wouldn't have imagined any of this would have really happened when I was packing my bags and thinking, right, okay, we're gonna move north north, I'm gonna give myself the opportunity to give this a go to be free of a mortgage and all that sort of stuff, which I was fortunate to be able to do, but it's been it's been a fabulous thing, and then to then get involved with producing through Bingley Little Theatre and all the other bits of support along the way, because when you look at, for instance, when I landed in Shipley, which is in Greater Bradford, if you want to call it that, then you start once you get to see what's around there's things like the Bradford Producing Hub. I've been mentored through them and supported through them, and there are all sorts of programmes, depending on where you want to go to, where you can really get yourself moving further forward to understand the landscape, what theatre or screen or anything like that is looking like at the moment and where the opportunities are because at the end of the day, funding is very sparse, and but it, it's knowing how to then get yourself into production, finding people where things can be made, and that actually with things like Scrip Yorkshire and the Script Writers Lab at Bingley Little Theatre, those roots and those resources are there, and it's the more you immerse yourself into it, the more you'll find it. So, yeah, you can really get to do the things that you've always wanted to do.

Roy Player 29:53

It must be now incredibly rewarding for you having gone telling us your story. But now when people come to you for the first time and maybe do that sort of couple of pages of writing for a magazine or anything, or that blank piece of paper, it must be very rewarding for you and your team at Script Yorkshire to see people progress.

Richard Rhodes 30:11

Above all else, it's always about peer support and celebrating each other and encouraging each other on. Certainly in, in and around Leeds at the moment, there's talk about developing a Leeds and Yorkshire fringe, and there are lots of people, young and old, who are really wanting to throw themselves into that and get things done and moving things on. So, yeah, it that there's such a lot there, and the potential is is fantastic because there might not be a lot of money around, but there's still a lot of energy and there's a lot of things happening, and and it's a case of finding those things and, and making yourself available to it and putting yourself in that place where you go, yeah, I can give this a go. Especially if you've had that little hankering thing from whenever, is find a way to do it. It's never too late.

Roy Player 30:57

Oh you know, Richard, what an extraordinary story, and really brave as well. Again, again, Derm showing that no fear, do not be afraid to fail. I just think it's fantastic. And just just a moment just to say, just to reiterate, actually, please, that he has released his first film, it's on YouTube.

Derm Tanner 31:18

Wow.

Roy Player 31:19

"Baked Bean Juice", and as we were saying, extraordinary achievement for him as well. And we know how that feels. We're kind of doing this with this podcast, aren't we? It's kind of going, let's give it a try.

Derm Tanner 31:30

Yeah, but I mean, you know, we haven't gone from one end of the country to the other and just gone north and thought, well, tell you what, I'm gonna stop doing this. It's his third career.

Roy Player 31:39

Yeah, I mean, it's incredible, bro. You're getting emotional there, Derm.

Derm Tanner 31:43

I tell you what, you know, I have hats off to him, hats off to him. And if he can do that, then he can help you guys. There's no doubt about it.

Roy Player 31:50

Help us all. I think so. And and again, credit to organisations like Script Yorkshire. There'll be loads of organisations across the country that do that and really support people who have a dream. And I know it sounds a bit cheesy, a bit sort of Disney-esque, but you know, why not? Is if you've had that passion, do try something,do try something different.

Derm Tanner 32:11

"Bushcraft" is certainly something very, very different, isn't it? I mean, I mean you know, again, that would be massively out of my comfort zone.

Roy Player 32:19

Yes, I mean it, it, it would be mine. I'm being honest with you, I'm not sure. I mean, I, I, I think I've I've approached this term in a slightly different way. I've actually got my missus a gift card to go and do the bushcraft. She'll experience what it's like to live in the wild and while I'm sat at home in front of the log fire. Six months is she away. I'm hoping that will be the case because her navigational skills do, apparently need a little bit of tweaking. So I'm hoping that I can just deposit her in a forest somewhere. And bless her.

Derm Tanner 32:57

Well, we'll see whether Roy is indeed still married by the time we get to the next episode. You've been listening to Grey Matters More, produced and presented by Roy Player and Derm Tanner. Please don't forget to like, follow, or subscribe. That way you'll never miss an episode.